But when I start debating it, it looks a lot like I follow Paul! I follow Apollos!, which the scripture CLEARLY condemns. F.B. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. The person who said this will one day stand before God and have to explain why hepronouncedyou, a child of God who is now standing withthe throngs of heaven with a crown on your head, a non-Christian. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. This was no emotional, short term thing. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. All of the people Ive met who have TAUGHT about Calvinism are clear on the definition, though. Nope. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. My bet would be that some (many?) Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. But for the most part, until I started studying apologetics, I didnt really care about the supposed differences and still dont except to understand but not as a means of division. Enter fatalistic determinism. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? He can- but there will be scars and pain that will not go away in this life. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. It is an incontrovertible fact that some parts of Calvinism have been used to hurt people. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! Everything. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! I was a Jesus Movement convert, too in 1972. @ janet: To derive strength from and grow like a shoot from a huge old oak tree. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. The theology is weak. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. Groovy, man. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. As I think youre hinting here, a certain amount of theology (what proportion, I dont know) is in reality nothing more than a minority social science. Before you do, let me ask: would you take the same tone with another man, and do you believe your words honor God? Happy Holidays. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. Its also what attracts many people to Calvinism nice boxes for everything, and rules connecting those boxes. But please consider what it sounds like to those of us who disagree. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. In practice its a bit like saying Catholicism in the latter youve got everything from evangelical Catholics through liberation theologians and the very conservative ones who want to go back to Latin masses and pre-Vatican II. I used try but I have given up. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. Much of what I am reading here involves debating or defining what Calvin wrote, etc. thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; I can see why many walk away . I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. Theres nothing wrong with pondering and wondering at the truths Jesus represents. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. Their approach goes like this: You heretic! Very good points on suggestions for non-Cs on how to view Cs. I will post about this. These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. We may diverge a bit here. If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. Benjamin Keach (1640-1704) Keach served as the pastor of Horse-lie-down church in Southwark, England. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. Although in the ever increasing post-denominational ecumenical trend, a lot of this gets blurred and you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Most churches teach Arminian theology. I know. I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. CALVIN!, The Bible? Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be is the last thing we need. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine. R.C. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Yes, some would slip away. With a long-dead Calvin as Cult Leader? I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. Hes big enough. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. Ed was not so big on doctrine. Believe me, Ive tried. . The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. CALVIN! In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). However, because of this experience, I was soon led to Christ by a mainstream believer. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? They certainly didnt bring freedom in Christ. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. He/She needs to be able to clearly understand why it is damaging and to openly explain how he/she does not hold to those ideas, which have been so awful as to cause some among us to become suicidal. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. I do not know. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. As I was saying in my post above, not only is it difficult communicating with Cals because they usually insist you just dont understand Cal!, but they cant agree with each other. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. Or the ideological roots of abuse. But my point wasnt to proof text Calvin. Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Here is my retort to everything you both said. Quotes about calvinism As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. When there is someone who has been really, REALLY busted up by a Calvinist, I completely get where the anger comes from. So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? Now.as to the flavor of Christian, Ill probably have you explain, if you mention something Im not familiar with or dont understand. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . He is still in a leadership position within the church. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. Craigs got it right. We are. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. When we hold to a law or principle that we think makes us better Christians but instead, causes existential damage to others, then something about that law/principle is awry and needs thorough reconstruction. This is not the way toward peace. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. It does mean that Calvinist and non-Calvinist Christians alike will have a far more difficult time sitting under the Word of God together when both sides appeal to the nuclear arsenal of the World Wide Web. It means you are thinking for yourself and we encourage you to continue to be the loyal opposition. However, Brian (a Calvinist) brought up a new topic and I decided since there was so much dialogue, I could easily keep the debate to one thread. Thinks youre cute. Was your family Christian? For a son to commit suicide? You should consider it though it is a pretty long video. Thus, just when you think youve got them pinned with the logical plumb line, they slip deftly away with a declaration of noyou dont understand; I dont BELIEVE that. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. I trust him because I understand his loving nature. You do not have to stay in a church that does not respect your point of view. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Not really thinking things though. So very reasonable. Now heres the thing, In Christ Alone is one of my favorite songs. What you believe is irrelevant. When RC said their are no rogue molecules in the universe, that implies to me that God directs even the smallest action, including the tongue. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? To me, there is a huge difference. Though I love discussing theology, I am a total lightweight compared to most (or all) of the participants in this conversation.Someday I hope to focus more on the study of how all the different denominations developed their spin.and the various characters who poured their lives into our Christian history. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries.
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